November 2017 Episode of Solidarity Is This

Feb - BHM (5)

Our Community is Our Campaign

Deepa Iyer is in conversation with M. Adams and Kabzuag Vaj, the co-directors of Freedom, Inc to discuss co-liberation practices among Black and Southeast Asian communities in Madison (WI).

What does it mean for Black folks to be building power in a majority white city? ... How do we expand that to be queer and trans-sensitive?

M. Adams

Deepa Iyer:

Hello friends. This is Deepa Iyer, welcoming you to the November edition of Solidarity Is This. This is a monthly podcast that looks at solidarity practices in America, and I'm really excited that we're able to bring guests from all around the country to talk to us about what it means to build solidarity at a time when our racial landscape is rapidly shifting and a time when communities of color are experiencing threats, both in the public's sphere and also from policies coming from government. If you've heard past podcasts, you know that we've had guests join us to discuss campaigns in which solidarity is a central organizing value. We've heard about the campaign to fight off the Muslim ban, we've heard about efforts to preserve immigration benefits for undocumented young people, and we've heard about the campaigns to save temporary protected status for those who cannot return to their countries of origin.

Deepa Iyer:

But how do we practice solidarity when we aren't in a crisis moment, how do we build on a daily basis when we don't have a campaign to save our rights that are being taken away for example, what happens when we take the time to build solidarity person by person, neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community. That is what we'll be talking about today in this podcast called our community is our campaign. That's the motto of a grassroots organization called Freedom, Inc, which is based in Madison, Wisconsin. I'm so excited that we have the co-directors of Freedom, Inc with us on our podcast, kabzuag Vaj and M Adams. Kabzuag and M, welcome to Solidarity Is This.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Thank you for having us.

Deepa Iyer:

Now, I know that we met last summer and had a little bit of time to get to know each other. And I remember being so inspired by Freedom, Inc's work because it's the type of cross racial cross community work and community building that we don't actually hear much about around the country, even though it is happening. And I also remember feeling like I had stepped into a family when I met the young folks who make up the soul of your organization, so I'm hoping that we can convey a little bit of that to our audience through this podcast today. So I want to start out actually by asking a little bit about Freedom, Inc itself, where exactly do you all organize and who are the communities that you organize? Kabzuag why don't we start with you?

Kabzuag Vaj:

Freedom, Inc started about 16 years ago, almost 17 years ago. And it started with Hmong youth and young people in Madison, Wisconsin. And it really was just me trying to provide a space for Southeast Asian and Hmong girls to come and have conversations and really looked at what was happening in their lives. And then eventually over the years, we became a nonprofit and as we were doing work within our own communities and we were doing real specific work in our own communities, we noticed that there were also black girls in the communities that we were serving that also needed in one space for themselves, and so that started our work in the black community. We created space and opportunities for them to start their own groups and eventually Freedom, Inc evolved to becoming a black and Hmong organization. And then more recently we've added our Cambodian component to our work and we serve and provide services and advocacy and organized around racial justice and gender justice issues within Madison, predominantly with folks who identify as being queer, fem, poor, working class in Madison, Wisconsin, and in the surrounding areas.

Deepa Iyer:

And I think I definitely want to delve into a little bit more about the Southeast Asian community and how the community got there, but I want to bring M in and also hear M about how the organization has evolved in the way that it includes Southeast Asian communities, but also black communities. Can you talk a little bit out that evolution process?

  1. Adams:

I came into the organization close to 10 years ago, at the moment was part of this garage where young black girls in particular were wanting to do something similar to what the Hmong girls were doing, which is having a space where they could talk about themselves, pressing the goals, as well as how these big things like the season institutions were impacting them in their lives. And so I came into the organization at that time and I really helped to think through what does it mean for black folks to be building black power in a majority white cities, and also to think through what does it mean to actually have black and [inaudible] camaraderie to have family, to have movement together, as well as thinking to those questions, but also because we were also gender specific at the time, thinking about how do we expand that to also be queer and trans, it also mean to have culturally specific, gender specific, generation specific movement visions for freedom for queer and trans folks.

Deepa Iyer:

I remember kabzuag that you saying ones that the neighborhoods, historically in the Madison area where you all organize are mixed in terms of race, and you also have talked a bit about in the past that I've heard you talk about the refugee who were placed into Madison. I was wondering if you could trace a little bit of that history for us in terms of the neighborhoods you work in and what the demographics have looked like and the history has looked like?

Kabzuag Vaj:

In the late 1970s to the early 80s, there was an influx right after the American war in Southeast Asia, there was influx of Southeast Asian refugees, mainly Cambodian, Laotian folks coming from Laos Cambodian Vietnam, and this influx of refugees, the resettlement programs in the United States basically placed and settle all of us into really poor, low income communities. And basically they didn't set us up with any infrastructures to survive, and so we were dropped in these neighborhoods pretty much overnight and left to fend for ourselves. And so what you see are today, a lot of Southeast Asian families are still living by side by side, on top of each other, amongst black and brown folks in the U.S. And so the history of Southeast Asian resettlement has made it so that growing up, I grew up around a lot of black folks, but because of the cultural differences, we never really talked to each other.

Kabzuag Vaj:

We knew we lived in the same communities, but we didn't have that type of relationship. And so when Freedom, Inc started to do work and actually go into our own communities, that's why it was such a natural fit like, oh, there are black folks there. Well, there's always been black folks in our communities because we actually came into their communities. And so I think that when Freedom, Inc, when we started doing that work, it was a ton of natural request from the black girls because they were black programming or programming within their community centers to provide services to the whole community, but there was nothing specifically for black girls. And so when they had that request, we knew as Southeast Asian women and girls and queer folks that we weren't the right ones to lead black girls but we also knew that we could provide a space and we knew how to provide a culturally specific space, and so that's what we did.

Deepa Iyer:

Yeah, and I wanted to just make sure that folks heard what you said in the beginning when you were chasing that history that you called it the American war, and I was just wondering if you could tell, talk a little bit about that reframe?

Kabzuag Vaj:

The U.S. looks at that war, it's called the Vietnam war, but for those of us who are impacted by America's involvement in Southeast Asia, we call it the American war in Southeast Asia. And so that's how we've likely reframed it because it is in fact their involvement in our countries that led us come here and it wasn't just the Vietnam, but it was a Vietnamese war.

Deepa Iyer:

Just so folks know, Kabzuag is talking about Southeast Asian folks, Hmong, Laotian, Cambodian and others who were displaced and brought here and then "resettled" in different parts of this country and not provided as Kabzuag mentioned with the sustenance and the types of benefits that they needed to eek out a living. So I just want to make sure that folks are aware of some of that history as well. So M, I wanted to turn to you because I know that both you and Kabzuag talked about the importance of having spaces that were separate in a way that catered to the needs of black girls, as well as Hmong and other Southeast Asian communities. And so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the places where that work is intersected, where both communities have come together, are there specific campaigns or other initiatives where there's been an ability to build that sort of solidarity between the communities that you all organize with?

Kabzuag Vaj:

We've been able to have success in our work, which we talk about and see as black and [crosstalk] is liberation work, which I think sometimes people call it multiracial organizing knowing we stay away from framing it that way it's really about communities having their own independent struggles and building those movement alongside of one another. Because we understand our work that way we have been able to own spaces where each community can talk about the unique ways that they're impacted by systems and issues can talk about what it looks like in culture, what it looks like, for how they experience particular institutions. And once people are able to explore that within their own experience, their own communities experience for an identity group experience, then we can build a shared knowledge group. So to give an example of this girls group, and then to talk about some of the work that they did together, when we were starting the girls group, we said, okay, put them all together, the black girls and the Hmong girls, then it was a huge disaster.

Kabzuag Vaj:

And some of it was for what I think people went into place to be like cultural communication stuff. There was certainly some of that, there was different languages spoken, there were some groups of far directness, some groups to serve other methods of communication, et cetera. So there was certainly some of that, but it wasn't just that it was about the actual scene that we were discussing people experienced them in such a different it material way, that it was difficult for them to talk about the same. So for example, though, both groups Hmong girls, black girls experienced patriarchal violence, or patriarchies in their community, the Hmong girls talked about it and how it showed up in community, how it showed up in their fathers, having multiple whys or piece of international Americans where men would go back to Southeast Asia and basically exploit younger women.

Kabzuag Vaj:

And the black girls didn't have a reference point for that. And in fact, they were like, no way, that's unheard of to us and we would never, they [inaudible] their response to it. And the black girls would be talking about how many of them growing up in single mom households, like some of them having different fathers in the same household in the way that men could not be there, be in and out and things like that and with Hmong girls was like, absolutely not. We would never allow that, you have to be married, it should be their cultural standard was that there should be one father, so there was just people experience the same root issue patriarchy, but the experience around it was so vastly different that we couldn't possibly have a conversation about it at that point. And so we knew that if people were going to seriously about patriarch, that instead of trying to convince the other group, the legitimacy of the other group struggle that we first had to go into people's own experiences in their own struggles.

Kabzuag Vaj:

And so we did that and when we were able to do that and spend more time doing that, then we could do a shared analysis. So then we could say to the black girls, okay, so this thing that you're talking about is patriarchy and patriarchy doesn't just happen and you would happen across racial cultural groups, and this is how it looks over here< the same thing for the Hmong girls who we were able to have that conversation. And then when we were able to do that, they began to be able to see sisterhood amongst each other, before they were looking to be the same. They were no longer looked for things. They were no longer looking to have the same story but what they recognized that there was a shared char. And from that point, these two groups became the leading groups for all of our youth organizing campaigns.

Kabzuag Vaj:

It was black girls, it was Hmong girls and then later was queer black youth, queer Southeast Asian who worked together on a variety of issues in 2010, these are the same young girls who when the Wisconsin uprising is happening, where there were hundreds of thousands of mainly white professional workers who were occupying the capital, it was these young, black and young Southeast Asian girls who were in the center of the capital saying, we're also going to fight for great to be considered breaking the law. We're also going to fight for food stamps, we're going to fight for bad care in healthcare, we're going to fight for better education. So they were the Vanguard of really challenging that movement to not just be what it was turning into, just to be like work really around white middle class. Also be based on those most impacted.

Deepa Iyer:

I think one of the things that struck me when you were speaking was really this importance of when we say we do cross racial, multiracial solidarity work, that it's really important not to flatten people's experiences. And to assume that there is a shared analysis or a shared struggle from the start. So the way that you talked about the sequential approach of first really having those independent conversations about patriarchy was the example you gave, but really about, what does liberation look like for Hmong girl, what does it look like for black folks, what does it look like for anyone else who's in these struggle, that is really important to do that independently at some level before people are brought into campaigns assuming that there's going to be a shared language or a shared analysis. So I thought that was extremely helpful in terms of understanding the way in which you do this work rather than just, oh, well, it sounds great, but the way in which you do it, just so important, the process is so important.

Deepa Iyer:

So thank you for laying some of that out. Kabzuag, yes, would love to hear a little bit about whether you think that's the approach that the independent conversations within groups about what liberation looks like and then bringing folks together, how has that worked, especially as you all have been working on issues related to housing, I know that you all work in low income neighborhoods. Tell us a little bit about how issues around class inequity, housing displacement have worked out using that approach.

Kabzuag Vaj:

When people think of all building solidarity and building a racial justice movement. I think that people often forget that outside of race, there's all these other components people have to take into consideration. And I think that gender is one of those that people often don't take into consideration. And then also this inter generational movement. And so I think that one of the things that we've been able to do also really well is we've been working with elders and we've been working not just around health I justice or environmental justice issues or queer justice issues, but we've been really doing a lot of our work through the gender justice lens and attacking and really trying to figure out how to end interpersonal violence or gender based violence in communities. And so one of the things that I think is important about our work is, and to answer that question is around providing services and advocacy for domestic violence and sexual health.

Kabzuag Vaj:

And so I think what M was talking about, like we've realized and understand that patriarchy impacts and massaging impacts our community definitely it impacts all of our communities, but how does it manifest differently and what does it look like in each of these communities? And so to give you an example, we know that we need to end patriarchy and we need to call out misogyny, but in my community, it looks very different than it would in the black community. And so some of the programs that we provide, like really look at those differences through the lens of, yes, we have a shared foundation of what we're trying to end, but because it manifests itself and it looks so different, like our programs also have to respond to that. And so to give you an example for our black elders or black folks that we're working with that are surviving violence, like therapy or black specific therapists, maybe the answer, but for our Kamai folks, it's the Buddhist temple.

Kabzuag Vaj:

And that's where they get all of their healing and that's where we gather and like get to regroup. And then for the Hmong folks, there's also a treatment center in town that we send folks to, or it's just that many of them are shamas or they still practice animism. And so how do we like push for that type of healing. And so I think that, it's like throughout all of our programs, we're really specific in how we craft the programs to fit the needs of each of these communities. But at the same time, understanding like what M was saying is that we're actually here for shared liberation. And what does that look like? And one of the things that we're really keen on is that we get free in our own communities and then we come together and figure out what that looks like in mainstream communities.

Deepa Iyer:

So shared liberation and collaboration is the goal that it's really important to figure out what that means and looks like in our own communities. I want to go back to that and ask actually, if both of you could share a little bit about when the campaigns have included. And I think M you were starting to talk about that so maybe I'll turn to you first when both communities come together, how powerful is that? And what are some of the observations that you've made as co-directors, when you've seen black and Hmong or other South Asian communities come together, are there some examples of those sorts of campaigns or initiatives and what has that meant to you? We'll start with you M?

  1. Adams:

Before I adjust the specific campaigns, I also want to say in the everyday work of our organization, that's also what we're doing, but in the things that are not as I would facing here as visible, but we're talking about some of the life savings, domestic violence and sexual assault services that we're providing, like folks are co advocating, so we have folks showing up with black folks and black folks showing up for Hmong folks, et cetera. And so in our everyday practice, we're really walking out our values, we're really living out our values so I want to uplift network, for some examples of campaign work that has been really critical. In the last few years, we've had some million tense, direct action campaign targeted at police violence that demand being community control over the police. We've also had some campaigns targeted around staffing mass incarceration, which is really around getting black people out of the jail and stopping the county from building a new jail.

  1. Adams:

This was at a moment like many other places around the country where there's lots of urban rebellions led by black people in the streets and we certainly were doing that here in Madison. And so, as we were doing that work, our Southeast Asian folks right in the streets with doing that work. And I think that's important to name because what you probably have observed nationally is while that was happening in other communities as black folks, there were some Asian folks who were like, oh, we better show up and they created Asians for black lives which I think was an important intervention, I think it's important this is no this to us. I mentioned that to say that you are actually black liberation and Southeast Asian liberation, you don't need an Asian for black lives because we're already in it together doing the work. And so that was an example of incredible work we did together.

  1. Adams:

So what we did do together is we stopped the building of 160 million jail right here in Ben County. What we did do is force this city to have a conversation for shift narratives around the function of policing. What we did do was challenge police power in every single sector that we could challenge it. And then what we did do is develop young leaders, elder leaders, women, queer, trans, black kamai among leaders in that process. And so we were able to have a whole bunch of win. We were able to win on a lot of the songs and a lot of different factors, and it's pretty clear to me that if we were not already doing that day in day out work that I mentioned at the beginning, or you pointing at like the thing that's not so visible, the thing that people don't write the headlines about, if you don't do that, then this other work is impossible.

Deepa Iyer:

It doesn't happen.

  1. Adams:

Exactly. And so we've been able to not only run here locally, we've also been able to help other people around the country through these. I remember we went to Ferguson and Kabzuag will speak about this, where our Southeast Asian folks were having conversations with Asian store owners where the urban values were happening and helping them to be in alignment with what was happening, even if it cost their business and impact et cetera, but she can speak more to that.

Deepa Iyer:

I think that point around the core advocating on a daily basis in the relationship building as you're right that's key right.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Yeah.

Deepa Iyer:

And so without that, yeah, people can show up for each other in campaigns, but it doesn't go deep unless you have those relationships built. And I'm also curious Kabzuag about what you think about, M's really insightful comment that I'm going to be thinking about a lot, which is, well, why do we need an Asians for black lives? So is that the sort of solidarity work that we need to be doing, or is it to do the type of work that you all are doing with Freedom, Inc, where people are in it together and so there doesn't need to be necessarily in other solidarity type of frame. So I'm curious to see also what you think of that and your work in Ferguson as well yeah.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Yeah, I think that if there were more organizations than people throughout the U.S. doing exactly what we're doing, which is being with each other every day, then there wouldn't need to be an Asian for black lives. But because a lot of Asian folks don't live next door to, or are involved in with black and brown folks every day, which is unfortunate. But I hear a lot of API students or folks throughout the U.S. who are saying, I just don't have that much daily connection with black folks or brown folks. And so I think that in those cases, there may be a need for Asians for black lives. So I think that there's different components of how Asian folks can participate and so I don't know if being in solidarity with each the every day and cohabitating every day is something that works for those who have been in the U.S. longer and don't have the torical context, south Asians, or even some south Asian folks.

Deepa Iyer:

Both of you work with and are thought leaders in broader movements in your own communities. And I'm curious to know, Kabzuag first with you and also picking up that thread that M talked about, about the work that happened in Ferguson. I know you're connected to SEAFN the Southeast Asian Freedom Network, you're connected to groups like National Capacity and others. I wanted to hear you talk a little bit about how the work that you do at Freedom, Inc informs the way that you influence and guide some of these more national initiatives that are focused on API communities.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Within Southeast Asian Freedom Network building black and Southeast Asian solidarity is one of our key components to being part of SEAFN. And so I think that though I would love to take credit for how Freedom, Inc works and is building black and Southeast Asian solidarity, I have to say that Lay Kong and Prism, and a lot of these organizations that are central to Southeast Asian Freedom Network leadership, they also have been doing this work on similar work in their own communities throughout the U.S. And so I feel like it's something that those of us who have been core to SEAFN have practiced over the last 10, 15 years. And so that's been, I think really refreshing and they in fact helped inform how I move in my work. And so I feel like that organization, I probably had the most impact in.

Deepa Iyer:

And did you have anything you wanted to add about what happened in Ferguson and bringing folks from Freedom, Inc there Southeast Asian folks there?

Kabzuag Vaj:

I think that was the beginning us practicing what it looked like because we had tried to build with each other on a daily basis but we didn't know any other ways, but to show up for each other. And so if we were shutting down a street or we were trying to get them to stop building a jail and we would all just go, so we didn't even see it as solidarity work whereas online shift, we just saw it like, this is bad for our community let's go. I think when Ferguson happened, like we went there and we're like, oh, like Asian folks or other folks have to learn how to show up. So it was natural for Joan and I two home folks to say, Hey, there's a rebellion happening, they just shot and killed the black person and our black folks want to go, and this might be traumatizing, let me drive you.

Kabzuag Vaj:

The second time we went was the black lives matter gathering, we were like, okay, you want to stay here and build leadership with and have conversations with your people, Joan and I said let's go and get your food, what do you need, you need to pick you up. It was really just showing up in a very humanistic way of like, okay, let me support you where I can. And then that's when I think the conversation of like, how do we show up and how do we be good allies, and so it was a really, like, it was easy for us to help in Haiti, the Korean American center in Chicago. And they said, we're kind of unsure how to be in this space, it was easy for us to just be like, oh, you know what it's easy.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Just show up and they put their bodies on the line, you put your bodies on the line. And so I think that was the first time we were like, okay, so people actually don't know how to do this, and people actually don't know if they're stepping on each other's toes or how do I show and what do I do. And then the other thing that I remember about Ferguson was we had a connection with somebody in St. Louis or in Ferguson and she was like, actually I know the store owners on that block where Mike Brown was killed.

Kabzuag Vaj:

So we went there and we actually sat down and it was a Chinese restaurant and it was some south Asian and lawyers and we all sat there and we said, this is what you guys should do but why aren't you giving out free food, why aren't you closing down your doors and said, we standing in solidarity, like what's happening here. And so I think that was a really important conversation and everyone's there and we just kind of like was in a moment and we were able to like really pushed the past like it's not enough to come up with a statement like, I don't understand why you're not cooking for the people who have, I don't understand why you're not closing your doors and saying like, we solidarity my firm Like why are you still in business and so I think that was a really good moment for us.

Deepa Iyer:

Yeah. And I think a lot of those foreigners did show up, it seemed like the Muslim, Arab, south Asian store owners. Yeah. And so that was really important to see. And I just want to lift up and then I'll turn to you M, for the last word on a question around the broader movement, I want to lift up SEAFN again. And there was a really powerful letter that SEAFN released in December of 2014 was an open letter to the Southeast Asian community on black solidarity. And you can find that online, we'll put it up on our solidarity syllabus at www.solidarityis.org, but it's a really powerful statement from the heart and clear and direct about struggle and solidarity and what that can look like, like really what it looks like rather than just kind of the words. So I urge everyone to read that.

Deepa Iyer:

So M, I wanted to turn to you for the last word. You two have been very involved and influential in broader movements for racial justice and solidarity work. I know that you're involved with the movement for black lives in particular and other efforts, and wanted to hear how the work that you're doing at Freedom, Inc, has been influencing the broader national struggle?

  1. Adams:

We've shared a lot of successes and it's also been pain. What we know is that not everybody stays, but not everybody went through the Southeast Asian community, stayed with us when the decision was made intentionally 10 years ago and not everybody in the black community stayed with us when the, in intentional decision was made. It doesn't matter if only the leadership get there.

Deepa Iyer:

That's true.

  1. Adams:

It has to be true, not only of Kabzuag and I, for example, and not just the staff here, but also our members and also our members family, and our members family, friends, and the neighborhood, et cetera. So we're always doing that intense education, we're always doing that intense political leadership, political analysis building so that it's really about communities and not just this selected few leaders, "have an analysis". And what we do know in the process is that work can actually be very difficult.

  1. Adams:

And so things that we've had to struggle around, a lot of different things, we've had to struggle to figure out communication stuff. We've had to struggle around political ideology. One of the things that we're going to be talking about, and just briefly, we were talking even more about this yesterday is for example, how our movements black movement and how Southeast Asia folks, communities movements, as related to socialism and communism, or has not for many of us, for black folks here, African liberation movements around the globe, it has been lifesaving those are our hero. And for our Southeast Asian people has been that leadership that has killed many of their folks that have been responsible for mass genocides that have been responsible for war and death so many.

  1. Adams:

So even things like that, like how we see ourselves, how we talk about economic justice, what words resonate with us like even things like that are struggle. So when people hear about the success, when they see our work, they see the victims, they see the thing that we built, they didn't necessarily see the process of the building. But to say that this is about a commitment to struggle, and so we are still trying to figure things out, we are still not always getting it right, we are still bumping our heads in places, but what we are is committed to one another, it's committed to figuring out our liberation alongside one another.

Deepa Iyer:

And as you mentioned, there's no dearth of moments, where we have to figure out how to stand up for each other. Right now we're seeing Cambodians being deported, rounded up and deported around the country, we're seeing the temporary protected status for countries like Haiti and Sudan and others in jeopardy, we're seeing obviously the band called band countries that include countries like Somalia, Yemen, and many others. And so there are opportunities for us to come together and build that shared analysis but I think it really goes back to some of the points that you both were saying around, how do we talk about it in our own communities and how do we co advocate on that daily basis and not just on those big visible moments and how do we really commit ourselves to the struggle. I feel like you've given us food for thought and also some grounding principles in the ways that you all are organizing in Madison.

Deepa Iyer:

And then of course extending that to the national community. So I just want to thank both of you from the bottom of my heart, because I know how busy you both are. And to get you both in a room and able to talk on this podcast, I know that a lot of scheduling took place for you both to be able to do that. And I just want to really thank you from the bottom of my heart, for the work that you do for the way that you inspire me, each of you, and for being with us today on Solidarity Is This.

Kabzuag Vaj:

Thank you for having us.

  1. Adams:

Thank you.

Deepa Iyer:

I'm so grateful to M Adams and kabzuag Vaj for joining us here and providing us with information about Freedom, Inc. And for those of you who want to learn more about the organization and support it, here's their website. It's www.freedom-inc.org. We'll be adding links to Freedom, Inc. Some of the other organizations we mentioned on the podcast, as well as some reading material in the solidarity syllabus that will accompany this podcast, you can find it at www.solidarityis.org. You also find on that website, some information around case studies related to solidarity, organizing principles and other information as well.

Deepa Iyer:

I want to thank you all again for listening and a special show out to those of you who've been tweeting and subscribing and downloading the podcast, please keep doing that, I really appreciate it. And I want to end our podcast with a quote from James Baldwin, who said "the world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in". I think those are meaningful, especially for those of us who often feel that these times are hopeless and draining and a struggle, but there are words to live by, and I hope that you'll find inspiration from them as I do. Thank you again for joining and I'll catch you next time on Solidarity Is This.

 

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