November 2022 Episode of Solidarity Is This

Deepa Iyer:

Hello everyone. Welcome to the November 2022, Solidarity Is This Podcast. This is your host, Deepa Iyer. As I tape this podcast, a lot is happening around the world. The midterm elections in the United States, the protests in Iran, the fallout over the acquisition of Twitter by a billionaire and so much more. There are social movements happening everywhere from classrooms to chats online to city streets. Usually on this podcast, we learn about how these movements take shape and what their demands are. But in this episode, we're going to focus on the fraught yet important relationship between philanthropy and social movements. Over the years at the Building Movement Project, we've been engaged in conversations with philanthropic institutions about how to effectively fund social movements. Last year we released a project called Move the Money, which adjoined the many bold demands being made of philanthropic institutions to give more, to give with flexibility and trust, to give for the long term, and to give without strings attached.

Through trainings and funder labs, we've been learning a lot about the conditions that both enable and hamper philanthropic funding to support social movements. You can find out more about Move the Money on our website at www.buildingmovement.org. So the conversation you'll hear today spotlights an initiative that we learned about during one of the funder labs we organized, the Right Relations Collaborative is an effort that took shape in 2020, between community rooted indigenous leaders and funder partners in the communities and territories of what is colonially known as British Columbia. The Right Relations Collaborative lifts up the longstanding work of indigenous leaders while being a space for learning for the philanthropic sector.

Funders are invited to this collaborative by the Indigenous Council of Aunties who vet potential funders and challenge them to show up for indigenous communities with authentic support. Through this process, the collaborative not only funds vital work, it also dismantles the inequities of the extractive nature of philanthropy to begin with, while providing a model for funding that can be replicated elsewhere. You can learn more about the collaborative and the Aunties Council at rightrelationscollaborative.com, which we will link to in our episode notes. Next step is my conversation with the co-leads of the Right Relations Collaborative Cúagilákv (Jess Housty) and Kim Hardy. Hi everyone. I'm really excited to introduce you to Kim and Cúagilákv. Welcome to the Solidarity Is This Podcast.

Kim Hardy:

Thanks. Nice to be here.

Cúagilákv:

Thanks for having us.

Deepa Iyer:

I shared a little bit about the work that you both do, but because this particular episode is going to focus on indigenous communities, I wanted to ask you both to share in your own words, however this question speaks to you, where do you live and who are your people? So I want to start with Cúagilákv first and then we'll move on to Kim.

Cúagilákv:

Great, thank you. So I'm speaking to you today from my unceded ancestral homelands and Heiltsuk territory, which is on the outer central coast of what's colonially known as British Columbia, Canada. I am of Heiltsuk and mixed settler ancestry, primarily from Norway. But I've grown up on my territory, in my community, my mother's community, and really feel a deep sense of present connection to my Heiltsuk people, and Heiltsuk homelands.

Deepa Iyer:

Thank you. Kim.

Kim Hardy:

So I'm speaking to you, where I live and work and play as an uninvited guest in the homelands of Lekwungen speaking people, what's colonially known as Victoria. My ancestors come from Scotland on my dad's side, and about a 50 square kilometer radius, part of the northeast of England Northumberland, on my mom's side. My dad's family has been on what's known as Vancouver Island or Kwakwaka'wakw territories for about four generations. And my mom moved to Vancouver Island from that little square kilometer radius place in Northumberland in the seventies with a great deal of privilege. And yeah, this is where I've had the amazing opportunity to grow up around the ocean.

Deepa Iyer:

I think it's so important to think about our points of entry into different conversations and projects and ecosystems, and so it's really interesting to hear how you define who you are and your communities as well. So thank you for bringing your ancestors, your parents, your communities into this space as well. I shared a little bit about the transformative work that you all are doing with the Right Relations Collaborative, and would love to know what's the thing that you're most excited about right now in terms of the work of the Right Relations Collaborative. So why don't we start with Cúagilákv first and then we'll go to Kim.

Cúagilákv:

I think for me, one of the things that has been so beautiful about the way the collaborative has unfolded is how organic it has been. We have this incredible council of Aunties, we have Kim and I at the table. We have a growing list of funders who are doing this work with us. And this all emerged fairly quickly through the pandemic and this sort of moment that we were able to see, as to do things differently. One of the things I'm really excited about now that we know this has legs and we know we have a great team assembled around it. It is really starting to dig into how we can articulate our values and processes and practices in a way that makes them clearer to the outside world and hopefully gives tools to other folks who want to replicate maybe aspects of what we're doing.

One great example I think is probably the work we're just starting to do now to articulate our internal gift making practices. We do things a little differently when we think about how we're going to disperse money from this pooled fund that the funders and the collaborative have put forward. And then finding ways to clearly and responsibly and lovingly articulate what we're doing, is a really important thing for us, so that we can make sure we're not just putting tools in other people's toolboxes, and really telling the story of what we're doing in a good way.

Deepa Iyer:

Kim, I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about the nuts and bolts behind what we just heard about what's exciting, what's present. I'm really curious about this year that has passed and in your perspective, what have been some of the highlights?

Kim Hardy:

I think it's taken shape because of the actual joy that Cúagilákv and I actually feel in doing this work. It's sort of the work that we've, I think, always craved. And I think it's important to note too that this, we've been doing this work for a year, but we have been in relationship with each other and some of the funders, not all of the funders, we have new funders, but for more than a decade in sort of working at this intersection of philanthropy and indigenous resurgence and revitalization. So I think that it's a joyful evolution of all of the work and challenges and barriers that we've faced, and questions of each other and to work through some of these things that everybody has sort of tiptoed around or felt shame about asking, and to surface some of these almost unexpected traumas that are coming around, actually having so much success in the first year and what it means to actually hold and share the responsibility of the success of community organization that's now hired people and is responsible for people's livelihoods.

Deepa Iyer:

I wanted to ask actually a couple of follow up questions that I'm sure people might be thinking about. I mean, one of them, and I want to ask you Cúagilákv, if you could answer this first is, why aunties?

Cúagilákv:

I love talking about the aunties. I adore the aunties. I think a big part of the reason why the Aunties Council is sort of moral and governance backbone of this space is because that's really how things function in our communities. I mean, speaking from my own community, we are matriarchal. There is political power that is accorded to men, but moral authority rests with women in the community. And when you look at who is informing big decisions, it’s often women. However, in sort of western colonial society, it’s the absolute opposite. Of course, we are fighting the patriarchy at every step.

Deepa Iyer:

Right.

Cúagilákv:

And so I think for Kim and I, we were thinking about who we wanted to be in community with doing this work, the answer was obvious because it was people we were already in conversation with, and they were brilliant women doing incredible things in their communities, and being able to center their power in the work that we're doing and as the people who are guiding the collaborative and receiving the engagement framework from funders and vetting funders and doing all of that work to set the table and set the values of this, that's just been so powerful to witness and honestly uplifting them and their brilliance just feels like the best work.

Deepa Iyer:

Thank you. I can just kind of sense it from just hearing you speak about it. And Kim, I'm wondering when you think about the funders that are on the table, I feel like one of the reasons that I really want to lift up what you all are doing is because you're flipping that script on power dynamics, and the power here rests with the aunties. So how do funders approach this space? What have you found is a way for them to feel both comfortable in the container you've created, but also uncomfortable in terms of pushing against privilege and power and positionality that funders just have?

Kim Hardy:

When we first set out to do this, we were really like, there's a power correction that needs to happen here and we need to flip that power dynamic. And I think now we've sort of realized that we don't necessarily want to just flip that. We don't want to 180 the power. We want to actually dissolve the power and transform the power, so that we're actually working from a place of collective power. Because everybody in this collaborative has power. And I think that's actually part of the work is really understanding who you are in the system and what power you have there and getting really clear on that, so that you can actually do something about it.

Deepa Iyer:

That's great.

Kim Hardy:

I think the decision making of where the funding goes, that rests with the aunties. So that sort of conventional power and philanthropy is really clear. And then I think the way that funders come into this, in order to initiate a conversation and become part of the collaborative, you need to complete the engagement framework, which I think is the key piece.

And there is a bit of a power flip in that funders do have to... It's a bit like a proposal, so you have to answer questions. And I think the key question really is the first question, which is like, what is your money story? Where did your money come from and how may have harm been created in the extraction of that wealth? That's the realization and the first step of acceptance that your accumulation of wealth has caused harm and you're ready to do something about it. And then it's, I think, our funder partners that have explored that are ready and understand that they have power and that there needs to be a correction and are ready to step into this collaborative space that's really transforming power.

Deepa Iyer:

Yeah. I really appreciate that engagement framework. What do you think has been some of the reasons that funders have been able to engage, be vulnerable with, as you say, the money story and articulating it? What are some of the reasons to keep them at the table once they begin the process? And what are some lessons that you've learned along the way?

Kim Hardy:

I think that funders were just ready for this. I mean, I think that if you're a person and you're working in conventional philanthropy or you're a money holder and you've tried to delve into aligning values with your investments, I think you already have an understanding of how much work that is. And so, I think funders were craving an opportunity to do that together and to learn from each other and where some of the pathways are to create more flow, to be able to get more resources out. And so, I think people have been ready for quite some time, and it almost comes as a relief to when funders first do it, it's like, oh wow, it feels good to share where the money comes from. It feels really good to reveal that story. It feels like I'm actually in a relationship now, because now I've been invited to share a bit about who I am.

Cúagilákv:

I think for me, on a personal, one of the biggest things that I've had to confront is the extent to which I, after 18 years of working as a fundraiser for indigenous organizations, have really deeply internalized capitalism and colonialism and the really oppressive norms of conventional philanthropy.

It is frankly traumatic. I mean, there are folks who might think that's an exaggeration say, but when I think about what it has done to my body and my heart and my mind over nearly two decades of trying to fight, to radically resource critical, urgent, beautiful work in community, it's hard, it's messy, it's personal, you know how high the stakes are. And so for me it's been really liberating to work in a different way through the collaborative, but it's also really alerted me to how deeply I've internalized all of this crap that doesn't need to be there.

Deepa Iyer:

Oh wow.

Cúagilákv:

And that we actually were almost bringing into the way we were doing things here, just totally unconsciously.

Deepa Iyer:

I just want to pause for a moment just to say thank you for sharing that. I really resonated with what you said, also from the perspective of someone who's had to raise funds for work in the community that, as you say is urgent and important, but feels like you have to make the case over and over again. So I'm sure that a lot of folks listening will also resonate with what you said. When you were speaking, I was thinking about the phrase, right relations and being in right relationship, that really is something that I think many of us have learned from indigenous communities. There are progressive funders who are going to be very able to pick up on this, but we also talk to a lot of funders who say, "We really care about this and we want to get there. But we are so far from getting there, our foundation is not at a place of readiness." So what do we do to take those incremental steps to get to this point?

Kim Hardy:

I think there was this paralysis or this block in the funder community, like, "Oh my gosh, we've got to figure out our DEI strategy," or, "We have to create an indigenous advisory group to help us understand how to do this work." And I think that was one of the things that I was witnessing is that, there were funders who were, well first of all reaching out to the indigenous people that, the three people that they did know and inviting them to... Asking them to step away from their community work and into their organization to help them.

Deepa Iyer:

Right.

Kim Hardy:

But even if they were being compensated or whatever, it's still, you're taking them away from the work that they should be doing. And then also, I guess just the sort of like, oh, before we do anything, we need to fix ourselves or we're not ready. I felt like what we were getting at with this was to create a bit of a gateway, a little place that you could continue to flow funding. Because the last thing we need is for everybody to halt their funding programs or redesign a grant making strategy.

Deepa Iyer:

Right. So you're completely ready, right? And everything is perfectly lined up.

Kim Hardy:

Exactly.

Deepa Iyer:

Yeah.

Kim Hardy:

And I think that's the other thing, it's more of a practice than a journey. There's no finish line, you're never going to be ready. I mean, I think that's the other thing. We're doing this work and it's like, wow, we're constantly learning and unlearning and we're never... There's no finish point. And so I think that being able to remove your individual need as a philanthropic organization or funder or whatever, and figure out how to do it in collaboration with others, I think that that's huge. And to meet community leaders where they're at and making sure that they have the space to do what they do. And I think the container we've created really allows for that.

Deepa Iyer:

So when we are in touch with funders who want to do a lot of what you both are doing, and with the collaborative, we find that they often say they're not in a place of readiness, not because of wanting to get it right, getting your political education and all of that right, but because they face barriers institutionally in terms of the boards or trustees and leadership who are unwilling to sort of engage. So if someone listening, were a program officer who really aligns with what you're talking about and wants to take that step, what advice would you have for them to try to move their organization's foundations along?

Cúagilákv:

I mean, my really clear, and I want to be clear, my loving advice, is get out of your own way and figure it out. The institutional barriers that people face in philanthropy to figuring out how to do things right or do things better are not worse than the systemic barriers that indigenous people face every day just to live, let alone thrive in their own places and communities. We have to figure out every single day how to survive colonization and also do good things in our communities and work with sectors like philanthropy to find ways to do it. If we can wake up every morning and push through the exhaustion to figure that out, we all can figure out the institutional barriers that you deal with. And I acknowledge that it is hard, but there are resources out there. There are people who are doing, what one of our Aunties, Nuskmata, calls “the bold work.” You have to do the bold work.

Kim Hardy:

Yes.

Deepa Iyer:

Loving and fierce at the same time. I'm grateful for that. So, as we get to the close, this is a podcast as you know on solidarity, and oftentimes when we talk with philanthropy, that word, that concept, that phrase doesn't always seem to resonate. And I'm curious how each of you thinks about solidarity as a practice in the Right Relations Collaborative, whether that is, as Kim, I know you've often described yourself as an accomplice in this work, whether it's in that vein or whether it is in the vein of right relationships that we talked about earlier.

Kim Hardy:

All of these words have... People react to them in different ways, and I think it's just really important to embrace and use the language that moves this work forward. And I'm happy to be called whatever and call myself whatever is helpful, and to be able to be an accomplice in this work is a true gift.

Deepa Iyer:

What about you, Cúagilákv? Any thoughts when you think about how solidarity is kind of an embedded practice in the work of the Right Relations Collaborative?

Cúagilákv:

I think the really big piece for me is that, I know how powerful the aunties are. I know, because I live it and I see it every day, just the beautiful power of indigenous community leaders and organizers who are making big shifts and just transforming the world around them. Where I want to see people acknowledging and embracing and using their power in good ways is on the funder side. And I think that's really for me the key difference between showing up as an ally, someone who believes in what we're doing and showing up as an accomplice, a co-conspirator, someone who is doing this work with you. I want folks to understand and embrace the power that they have within the systems that have created them or the systems they work within. And I want them to find ways to use that power to dismantle things that need to be just broken down, and to help us build better and more beautiful things in their place.

Deepa Iyer:

Yeah, I really feel that one of the things I'm taking away, many things I'm taking away from our conversation is this power of transformation that you both spoke about, both in terms of, as you're talking about power structures, but earlier Kim talked about it as well in terms of not just shifting power around, but building for collective power. You're both mothers, you're visionaries, builders. How do you preserve the wellbeing of yourselves as well as those that you care about? Why don't we start with you, Cúagilákv?

Cúagilákv:

I think for me, actually, this might seem counterintuitive because the work of the Right Relations Collaborative is like, it's big and heavy and messy and it's a lot. But actually for me, it's inherently nourishing work and choosing to do this and work in a space where I really believe and see that transformation is possible, that is just inherently nourishing for me. And really, I think the word joy has come up a bunch of times, and I really feel that in my bones. This is joyful work when you really commit to it. But I think you know what keeps me feeling really grounded and balanced is remembering what brought me to the place of power that enables me to do this work, which is love for and love from my community and my land and my people.

Deepa Iyer:

Thank you so much. Kim, what about you?

Kim Hardy:

I feel like after making a bunch of incremental steps in this direction over a decade, I feel like this is a leap. It fills my heart to be able to do it and to have found this place to do this work in this good way. And it is big work and I don't want to make it seem, oh, it's just so fun. But it's like the paradox of the joy and the pain of this work that makes it so fulfilling and rewarding. And I would be less well if I wasn't doing it, if I was continuing on to do things the way we have been, but also making sure we're doing it with intention and at a pace that maintains the integrity and allows us to have space to connect with our families and our people, and the water and the land where we are, which is why we're doing this work. So that's important too.

Deepa Iyer:

That's beautiful, because oftentimes we're told to find the nourishment and joy elsewhere, but really if we're in right relationship with ourselves, then it should be in the work that we're doing as well, right? So I really want to thank you for taking time to be here to share your reflections, your learnings, the unlearnings. So thank you so much from all of us at Solidarity Is This.

Cúagilákv:

Thanks for having us.

Kim Hardy:

Yeah, huge thanks. It's an important conversation and happy we can share it.

Deepa Iyer:

I hope that you learned as much from that conversation as I did. If you are a funder involved in philanthropy or connect with funders, please check out the work of the Right Relations Collaborative. Links to their website, as well as other resources are in our episode notes. November is also National American Indian Heritage Month. We want to lift up our Native partners, including Illuminative, the Native Organizers Alliance, the National Urban Indian Family Coalition and Advance Native American Political Leadership, which are among the many groups in the ecosystem of Native organizing. Please support them as well as Indigenous led land trusts that facilitate the return of land to Indigenous peoples. As we near the close of 2022, which is quite unbelievable. I wish each of us time to rest and reflect individually and collectively. Please take good care of yourself and your community. See you next time on Solidarity Is This.